Star Wars Thoughts - Rise of Skywalker, Take 1

[orangerful]

So, it's been a few weeks now and I've had time to ruminate a bit more on the latest Star Wars movie. If you didn't see my previous thread that linked to my twitter post, I can boil most of my feelings toward this movie as this:



And if you liked the movie - good on you. We all like different things. It doesn't make us less friends or more friends, we just have different tastes in films and how we approach certain stories.

I've talked with plenty of people that liked it and I think that it all boils down to what you wanted from this trilogy and this movie specifically.



I think there were two ways to approach this movie.

Some thought of this as a 9 movie saga, starting with Anakin and going to Rey, but at the core, still about the original Star Wars films and characters. They wanted everything to be linked together. They wanted characters and moments from all the previous movies to participate. They wanted this to be a grand finale for all 9 of those films, creating a second closure for Luke, Han and Leia. I had not watched any trailers, but I heard that was what Disney was pushing in the trailers, linking it all back to the original movies.

Others thought of the sequel trilogy as its own story, with the original films part of its history but the stories were that of Rey, Finn and Poe (sort of). They wanted this finale to be their finale, because we have been told by Disney that this is the end of their stories on film. We knew we would be saying goodbye to everyone, but the focus would be on this next generation of characters and bringing their stories to some kind of resolution.

I was in the latter camp.

I remember when Force Awakens was initially announced and casting information came out about the original cast being featured. I remember dreading it. While the prequels weren't perfect, they didn't really effect the original films. Yeah, they created a backstory for Darth Vader and Obi-Wan, but it was easy to ignore them when you settled in with your popcorn to watch the OT. But finding out that Luke, Han and Leia would be back, I was worried that their stories would be tarnished, or it would turn into Indiana Jones and the Crystal Skull and just be painful to watch as older characters were forced to act young.

When Force Awakens was released, I loved it because it surprised me. Leia and Han were there, but they were not the main characters, more historical figures moving in the sidelines, letting Rey and Finn surprise me with their stories and characters. And when the ending happened and Rey was the one with the lightsaber, I remember being overcome with emotion - a woman with a lightsaber, in a movie, being a badass. I didn't know how much I needed it until I saw it and realized that, while I loved Leia, she never got to be this hero.

Yes, TFA was a fun play on New Hope and its story, but it still managed to be unique in its own way. And as long as the sequel wasn't a remake of ESB, things would be fine.

The Last Jedi surprised me even more, taking Star Wars to a more thoughtful and mature level, playing with tropes from the universe. It wasn't perfect, but I liked the different messages. I liked Leia trying to teach Poe that his reckless actions, typical Movie Action Hero risks, were not good in the real world. I liked hermit Luke teasing Rey and watching Rey bring him back to being an active in the universe. And while Finn and Rose's story dragged a LOT in places (why DJ, why?), I liked how she helped convince him to be a hero for more than just Rey and understanding the far reaching effects of the war and the resistance.

But above all, I enjoyed Rey and Kylo's story (NOT Rey/Kylo! Rey and Kylo) and the idea of living in that gray area. Where before, the Jedi and Sith were about black and white, it was fascinating to watch Kylo talk about letting go of old ways and forging new paths and how the villain was actually making sense and how, for a moment, I almost thought Rey could help him find balance up until that final moment when he turns away. As Luke faded away into The Force, it was clear that Rey was now the Last Jedi. And Kylo, her nemesis. This was not a remake of ESB - Kylo Ren's relationship with Rey was completely different to that of Luke and Vader.

But where would this story go? Should Kylo Ren be redeemed after everything he did, especially after destroying the mask and doing it all as a man? What would Rey be like as a Jedi?

Turns out, those questions were not the questions the writers of Rise of Skywalker were interested in. Suddenly, the movie was about the Emperor, dead for 30 years, but not really. And Leia, not dead in the movies but dead IRL. Instead of being about Rey as a Jedi, she is suddenly at the same level she was in TFA (her clothes even reverted back). Kylo Ren also reverted back to his former self, even rebuilt his old mask.

And the biggest bit of disappointment - it all slid back and suddenly became a strange blend of a ESB/RotJ reboot. The opposite of what I wanted.

Do I feel foolish for not expecting this? J.J. Abrams did the same thing with Star Trek, swearing up and down that the second movie would not be a remake of Wrath of Khan and yet...it was.

I don't mind fan service but I have a low tolerance for it. I can go from being amused to feeling manipulated pretty quick and I don't like that feeling. Others live for it: they love a movie that is wall to wall nods, winks, references, callbacks and retconning. There was a LOT of this in Rise of Skywalker, and while others revel in it, it just annoys me. As you can imagine, RoS pushed my buttons.

So, yeah, I love the original trilogy and I love Force Awakens and The Last Jedi. But they were always two separate trilogies for me, with some guest starring characters in the new trilogy. I felt like Rise of Skywalker went too far, and the guest stars suddenly became the stars. The fan service overwhelmed the story. I wanted Rey and Finn and Poe and Rose and Kylo Ren - their stories, their finales.

There's a lot more to this, more specifics I can go into, but after thinking about it for several days, I can understand why people liked the movie. But I can't even bring myself to see it again. I have not felt that upset when leaving a movie in a long time. I burst into tears. I was so let down and frustrated. I've been going through the stages of grief ever since because I don't feel like those characters got the attention they deserved.

I think I will stop there. I have a note on my phone that I keep adding to as I think of things that I was disappointed by, storylines that I wish had been, and those I wish had not happened at all. And even as I think about it, I think of ways the movie could have been rearranged to be stronger, little story tweaks, edits, that could have made it coherent and flow better, doing more justice to the characters.

Okay, going to stop before this becomes a novel. I mean, it probably will be a novel eventually, but I should at least break it up into chapters. Hopefully this was coherent enough.

Comments

[jerusha]

I can certainly understand why this movie was terribly frustrating for you. I think I felt similarly after The Last Jedi, but that had a lot to do with my grief over Carrie Fisher's passing (I think, I still haven't completely unpacked it). I went into this movie with very low expectations, and I think that helped because I focused on the little things that I did like. But I have been that disappointed at a movie before, or the end of a TV show, and it really sucks.

[yourlibrarian]

I wasn't very taken with Last Jedi, but I could appreciate the fact that it was doing something different with a Star Wars movie. There was plenty of talk about how Force Awakens was a remake of New Hope with similar beats and even similar sorts of characters. But as you said, the focus on the new characters, and the fact that the story was just different enough while also providing some answers about the original characters, made it the strongest of the 3 to me. Last Jedi actually had an entirely different plot style, and even gave us an entirely new character to focus on.

So yeah, Rise had some good moments but as a whole was just a slapdash assembly made to get everyone to the finish line. I mean, I have to wonder why Abrams is seen as some sort of wunderkind producer because this is pretty typical for him in property after property.

Also, as an aside, what I kept wondering is about the casting. Because Kylo looks nothing like Leia, Han, or Luke for that matter. Yet Daisy Ridley seemed cast to be a new Leia from the getgo -- she absolutely could have been a daughter. It made me think that Kylo was always cast to look the villain and that maybe he was originally meant to stay one.

BTW, given your thoughts you might find the articles I just linked to in my post today of interest.

[orangerful]

Last Jedi was the Prisoner of Azkaban of the series - superior in style and story, but didn't quite gel with the others overall because it was a little too "mature" in its approach. That's probably not the word I want but it is late and I cant' think of a better one LOL.

Again, they really pulled a Star Wars - swearing they had it all planned out from day 1 only to actually throw things together at the last minute. Lucas claimed he had the prequels all ready to go in 1977 too. Fibbers.

I saw your links but haven't clicked through, I shall seek them out for later reading!

[beccadg]

I have to wonder why Abrams is seen as some sort of wunderkind producer because this is pretty typical for him in property after property.

My suspicion would be that his slapdash assemblies make the studio suits above his head much happier than they make you or me, them and-or enough viewers to make the studio suits above his head very happy. It's always important to remember that no matter how "super" a super-producer you're talking about they're still answering to a movie studio or TV network. I'll never forget that Jerry Bruckheimer was a big enough super-producer when Disney released Pirates of the Caribbean: At World's End to openly publically complain about the studio having made edits to the movie he hated. I hate the movie and I hate Disney for suckering me into watching it, but I take consolation in knowing it isn't the movie Jerry Bruckheimer intended.

[yourlibrarian]

True -- when Disney owns a property ultimately Disney calls the shots, and given its dominance in the marketplace, very few who they work with would want to go to war over creative decisions.

[razorbladeromance]

I sub to those two on YT! :o

[orangerful]

I adore Ellen and Luke. And Andy, Jane and Mike too. Awesome people.

[razorbladeromance]

:D IKR?

[beccadg]

Disclaimer/Reminder First: I have not personally sat through any of the sequel trilogy movies, seen some of the other Disney Era Star Wars properties, but not the trilogy.

That said, I find your statement, "finding out that Luke, Han, and Leia would be back, I was worried that their stories would be tarnished, or it would turn into Indiana Jones and the Crystal Skull and just be painful to watch as older characters were forced to act young," very interesting, especially given you apparently were pleased with Luke, Han and Leia being "not the main characters, more historical figures moving in the sideline." One of the reasons I have not and will not watch the sequel trilogy is that to me reducing The Heroes of the OT to "the sideline" does tarnish their stories. It reduces them from The Heroes to Has-Beens off the top, without even getting around to killing them off, which just adds insult to injury in my book. Now, I said it's just one of the reasons, and it is just one. Another reason is that, as much as I was afraid as soon as I heard that Han, Leia, and Luke would be back meant that they'd be reduced to insulting bit parts before being unceremoniously killed off, I was equally afraid that fan demand for the OT characters would mean any new characters introduced would either be imitations of the OT characters or end up taking a backseat to the OT characters. It sounds like the trilogy ultimately managed to live down to both fears not just one of them. It sounds like it undervalued the characters all the way around. It gave the OT characters short shrift in the beginning and the new ones short shrift in the end. My wish, before the news of Disney's dragging the OT characters into their new trilogy broke, and now after it's supposedly done is the same -- I wish they'd set it not decades after the OT but centuries with the OT characters ONLY legends on the sidelines preserving their state as The Heroes of the OT and giving the new kids all the room to be themselves.

[orangerful]

See, for me, the older heroes need to pass the torch to the younger generation. If the sequel trilogies had been about Han, Luke, and Leia at the ages the actors are now, it would have been very silly to me. They are too old for that anymore - thrilling heroics are for the young. Heroes should evolve into mentors. And they all do, in their own way.

And all of their deaths meant something, they progressed the story (well, 2/3 - I have a whole Leia rant for Rise of Skywalker in my brain...).

But, yeah, the "fan demand" (i.e. fans with toxic attitudes that worried Disney enough that they wouldn't get the money) caused the third movie to become a mess and if they had not bumped off Han and Luke and Fisher had not died, I firmly believe that they would have had them all sweep in and the end and fight off the bad guys rather than letting the new generation step up.

Oh, and give Disney time, they are gonna make Star Wars movies until we are all sick of them, just like Marvel movies.

[beccadg]

See, for me, the older heroes need to pass the torch to the younger generation.

I see no reason for "passing the torch" to be done in a near literal fashion with the older generation forced to be present just to provide info-dumping and leveling up before being killed off.

If the sequel trilogies had been about Han, Luke, and Leia at the ages the actors are now, it would have been very silly to me.

I'm not disputing the idea that Harrison Ford, Mark Hamill, and Carrie Fisher are/were too old to be acting like they are/were still kids. Wanting their characters to be treated as "Legends," or left out of the stories entirely--which I would have preferred more than having them treated as disposable resources for their replacements--is not the same as wanting them to behave like still youthful heroes.

...thrilling heroics are for the young. Heroes should evolve into mentors.

One, it's one thing to say they're too old to still act like kids, but something else to say, "thrilling heroics are for the young." It's an ageist statement--only the young can perform "thrilling heroics." It denies older actors the right to even appear in action films that carefully incorporate their age into the story, whether it's done in the style of The Expendables, RED, or Space Cowboys. Two, the phrase "evolve into mentors" may sound like a wonderful positive process to you, but to me, it says "be reduced to 'Has-Beens' that help their replacements level up before getting killed off."

And all of their deaths meant something, they progressed the story...

One, I don't believe that "progressing the story" automatically makes a death "meaningful." It takes more than being a story progressing plot device for death to have actual meaning. Two, I always doubt that a story that uses character death as a plot device is capable of truly giving death meaning because it demonstrates--with how it uses death--that it's thinking of death as an action beat rather than as something larger.

But, yeah, the "fan demand" (i.e. fans with toxic attitudes...

Given I sympathize with fans that went to the sequels wanting to see more of the OT heroes and hung in there even though they were unhappy with the treatment of the OT heroes, I think it's unfair to call them "fans with toxic attitudes" based solely on their expressing disappointment with the sequels and desire for their preferred heroes over the "younger generation." I know OT fans that only saw the Force Awakens and only once because they'd kept themselves spoiler free going in, and were appalled they paid movie theater price to watch Han Solo die. I don't know OT fans that similarly gave up after Luke Skywalker's death in the Last Jedi, but undoubtedly there were some. That's not about the "younger generation" not looking like the older one, or acting like it. It's solely about the "younger generation" not being the OT heroes. It's one thing to want the sequels to focus on a "younger generation," but it's something else to insist that the OT heroes should be in those sequels to get used and killed off, and no one should complain about it.

...if they had not bumped off Han and Luke and Fisher had not died, I firmly believe that they would have had them all sweep in and the end and fight off the bad guys...

Which you might not have enjoyed, but others would have. Hell, I might have actually paid money to see that. Have "the old guard" do some "mentoring" in the first two movies, and still save the day in the final act, yeah, I might have watched that.

...give Disney time, they are gonna make Star Wars movies until we are all sick of them, just like Marvel movies.

One, just because I hated Infinity War/Endgame doesn't mean I'm "sick" of Marvel movies. It just means I'm being more particular about which Marvel movies I go to from here on out. Two, the MCU began years before the Force Awakens was released so Disney isn't as far along on it's learning curve with Star Wars fandom. It may or may not figure out how to tell Star Wars stories without using characters from the OT as crutches.