I&#39;m a slayer, ask me how.

Yeah, that would render me unable to listen to a band's music ever again.

From:

a-phoenixdragon.livejournal.com

I guess I'm still in the (horrid) category of handwaving it and forgiving it because of the timeframe it was made in. Viewing it as it was intended and seeing that no harm was intended. Unless it is massively blantant and INTENDED to harm. Then I have less forgiveness.

*HUGS*

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thistle-chaser.livejournal.com

'Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure' and getting turned off when they started to call each other 'fags' anytime they showed affection for each other.

Oh wow, really? Ugh. I haven't seen the movie since it came out, but I remember liking it at the time. I don't remember that at all. Ugh!

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I adored both of the Bill & Ted movies as a kid so it was a little jarring to hear them tossing around that word. I'm sure I didn't even know what it really meant when I saw the movie but it makes it a little harder to enjoy now.

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(First, full disclosure, I don't read Batman and I'm not a comic person in general, so I couldn't really follow the article. So nothing in here is in reference to it.)

By fandom are you mostly talking about creators? Or things the fandom itself has done?

There will always be the "metal bikini problem", among other things, but in the end I can still watch Star Wars and love it.

The thing with Star Wars too is that it was written and filmed in the 70's and 80's, so there's a certain amount of values dissonance. Even in the 90's there were things in media that would not be okay now. Like Bill and Ted. Not that you shouldn't still be bothered by it, but... that's the risk you take with watching older stuff, I guess? Because yeah, it can be pretty ugly. (Although I dunno, I feel like even for the 80's the "f-g" thing is a little much. But maybe not...)

Any writers, actors, musicians that you were a big fan of as a kid but then you found out more and became aware that the person behind the stories wasn't all that great?

Ann M. Martin. I admired her so much as a kid, then realized how self-righteous and kind of pompous she was in her books. For instance, so many Baby-Sitter's Club books make a point of mentioning that Santa and the Easter Bunny aren't real, and in her autobiography (written for her young fans) she goes on and on about how she never believed. It doesn't offend me, but it's kind of weird that she had this mission to "out Santa" as it were.

More annoyingly, her sympathetic characters could be terrible people; there's a whole book about the entire club giving one of the sitters the silent treatment because she got a haircut. Not even joking. And... honestly, I could go on all day. I'm still glad I had the privilege of reading those books, they were great, but while I think she's probably a nice enough person, I'm not sure I'd want to invite her to a party lest she be judgmental.

(I have way worse adult examples, that was just the first kid example I could think of.)

Also, celebrities have said things on twitter that have bothered me. But... I try to be careful about judging there, because in all honesty, they're human, and sometimes when we're human, we say and do stupid things - except we don't have the whole world watching/listening/reading and judging. Not that there aren't times a celebrity clearly has pretty problematic views, there are, but it's so easy to say "well this person said something shitty, so they're obviously a horrible human being" when the rest of us probably spout off shit all the time without even realizing we're doing it.

Actually, that goes for non-celebrities whose posts end up leaked, too. But that's another rant.

Edited Date: 2016-03-02 06:30 pm (UTC)

From:

I probably misused the word fandom, I'm thinking more about the shows, the creators, the actors, the things we obsess over. The actual people involved in fandom would be a whole other issue.

Ann M. Martin is a good example. I know I was enjoying the 'Legend of the Seeker' show and thought about reading the books but then my friend told me about the author and his political views and I opted to not read them and hoped the show was disconnected enough for it to not be an issue (and then the show got cancelled so...shit).

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Oh, no, it's fine. People actually use the word like that a lot. I got what you meant after I asked, actually, but forgot I'd asked.

I mean, considering the comments pointing out celebrities and writers who're racist and homophobic and have actually hurt people (see: Bill Cosby), AMM is pretty harmless. But it's definitely an example of realizing, in hindsight, that the things the writer apparently wanted you to go along with make you go "whuh?"

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From:

femme-slash-fan.livejournal.com

There are so many films and TV shows I love that are problematic and I always end up just face-palming and groaning like 'uUUUUGH' but I still go back and watch them.

Worst for this is probably Star Wars for the bikini thing... but then Leia is such a strong character it doesn't really take much away from her because even in that metal thong she chokes Jabba... so I kinda forgive it.

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I feel like Star Wars manages to be okay because, while the bikini happened, and the people *watching* might have been leering at Fisher's body, no one in the movie really does that except for Jabba, and he's not a good guy so it's okay? If Han or Luke (ew) had made a comment about the outfit, it would have probably caused more issues but in the end, it is a fantasy movie for "kids" so the sexuality is pretty subdued.

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Yeah. Leia is a very kickass female character, so that helps. And you make a good point that only Jabba is really creepy about it. Who, as you also point out, is strangled by Leia.

From:

femme-slash-fan.livejournal.com

I feel like Leia was the first time I really went 'Women can be kick-ass too' so, even with the bikini thing... they still gave girls a fairly strong role-model.

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night-owl-9.livejournal.com

There are a lot of films and TV shows that are problematic for me; it depends on which one exactly, but sometimes I do continue to watch them and keep a ongoing critique of it.

My opinion on Woody Allen has changed drastically since my childhood. I wasn't aware of anything about his personal life when I was younger, thus I was able to enjoy his work without qualms. Now? No way Jose. Ugh.

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Woody Allen is definitely a good example. I remember watching some of his movies when I was in my "classics" phase but then finding out about his real life issues just made it hard to enjoy anything.

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ragnarok-08.livejournal.com

My opinion on Bill Cosby has definitely changed drastically after hearing about the sexual assault cases, and now the damage is done.

From:

kita0610.livejournal.com

Oh yeah that's the kind of thing there is no going back from. It's more than just problematic, it's unforgivable.

On the opposite end of the spectrum, the books that hold up over time for me are all of Madeline D'Engle. Happy childhood/YA sigh.

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rogueslayer452.livejournal.com

Same. I loved watching The Cosby Show and while I normally can separate fiction and the actual person, everything surrounding him lately has unfortunately left a sour note when seeing old episodes. :/

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Oh god, I forgot about that. I don't really remember much about The Cosby Show since I was so little, but I do remember loving it. Ugh. :/

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nienna42.livejournal.com

Orson Scott Card. I didn't know anything about him when I read through the Ender series, and I do still love Ender's Game, but now that I'm aware of his views, I can't read any of the later books without wondering how I didn't see the blatant homophobia in the first place.

From:

xfirefly9x.livejournal.com

I heard about that too - right before I was going to pick up one of his books. (I went with a different book.)

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Oh yes I'd hear that about him too, it makes it hard for me to recommend any of his books knowing that those messages are "hidden" in the text.

From:

hamsterwoman

I was coming here to say Ender's Game, too. I actually still love the book itself -- I think it's quite amazing. And I first fell out of love with the series because the sequels were getting progressively... not-so-good, and also weird -- and only later found out about Orson Scott Card's views. But it makes it hard for me to recommend Ender's Game to others, and I always do it with a caveat about the author, and also tell people to stop after the first one, maximum Speaker for the Dead. I certainly wish I had!

I did encourage my children to read it when the movie was coming out, but I also told them of my feelings about the whole series and OSC, so they got the context, too.

Edited Date: 2016-03-03 06:52 am (UTC)

From:

katmarajade.livejournal.com

Chiming in to agree with this one! Ender's Game remains one of my favorite books for many reasons, but it now has a sheen of sadness to it. I think that Ender's Game itself doesn't showcase OSC's personal views as heavily-- whether that is due to the contained frame of the story, the main characters being children, or that it was originally written much earlier than the rest of its sequels, perhaps when he was younger and less hardcore? I don't know. But I loved the companion novels (the Shadow series) on first read, and I was so wrapped up in the characters that I barely noticed the troubling content, but going back and reading them again is hard, as there is so much cringeworthy content-- extremely heteronormative and just some weird stuff. *sigh* It's such a pity, because he's so good when he's not soapboxing, but the older he gets the more he loves to stuff his work full of his own worldview. That's normal, of course, but it makes it hard to swallow anymore. I wish I could love them like I loved them on first read. :-/

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I can't really think of any off the top of my head right now, though I am sure they're there. I am currently reading a Bryce Courtenay book that was written in 1996 and I swear if the phrase "mentally retarded" pops up one more time... it probably will, because the main characters are mostly homeless and there are lots of observations about the homeless community, but I cringe every time I hear it.

I am pretty picky about how women are represented. I was half-watching the Big Bang Theory last night with my partner while we had dinner and I started having a rant because the episode was about Amy and Howard freaking out that they're going to be parents; Howard's freak-outs were about how he doesn't feel he's equipped to be a father and the angst that goes along with that... Amy started out that way, but it very quickly devolved to "And I'm going to get fat wah".

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Language like that can really pull you out of the moment, but that was the term in 1996 so I guess we can only be so upset?

I watched about one season of 'Big Bang Theory' and that was all I could take because it was such a one-note joke show. And I think moments like that are pretty typical of most popular sitcoms, which is why I end up avoiding them, they just make me rage. I find stereotypes in comedy to be lazy writing. It's easy to find a punchline with a stereotype.

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Yeah, I'm not a big fan of sitcoms for the same reason, though I do enjoy a few older ones from the 80s/90s. I feel like they tried a bit harder back then, whereas now sex jokes and crap like that are allowed on prime-time TV so they just fall back on that. :\

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I've never watched TBBT, but I always felt like it was making fun of nerdy types more than it was laughing with them.

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That is EXACTLY what it does. Drives me crazy. Someone wrote a good article a while ago comparing TBBT to Community, because Community definitely laughs with the nerds.

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Oh, I am VERY picky about the ladies. Always have been. I even get picky when shows will have strong or at least strongish female characters, or a strong(ish) female character, but none of them seem to like or vouch for each other unless they're discussing men or shoes. Even on shows I like, I find myself constantly wishing they'd just have the female characters interact positively.

Edited Date: 2016-03-03 01:14 pm (UTC)

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I can't remember what I was watching recently, but I remember Edy asking me something about it and me flailing and exclaiming "Positive female friendships!" I really should try to remember what that was and go back to it.

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rhoda-rants.livejournal.com

Oh honey. You have no idea. A related problem is when the fanbase itself is not comprised of people you'd want to be around otherwise. There are a couple of band fandoms I just cannot interact with because they're super-exclusive or territorial or something. And not just the "no girls allowed!" dipshits either.

I'm kind of working on a blog post about this very thing, actually. Ahem. Stay tuned.

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oh FANBASE issues are a completely different rant, for sure. I know plenty of people who won't watch shows or listen to certain bands because of bad experiences with fans. Which is sad because that's not the shows fault at all!

I'm more thinking about when the faux pas comes from the creator or an actor or something like that where now when you watch the show/hear the band, you can't unsee the thing and you've lost all respect.

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I was kind of like that with Lost. I was in the same fannish circles as some Lost fans, and suddenly every single conversation was dominated by how AWSUMZ11 Lost was. Even though I knew they were young (and therefore a little overly excitable), it turned me off of the show completely because I got so sick of hearing about it. A bit of a petty reason, in hindsight, but there you go.

I've known people who hated Firefly because they got sick of hearing about it, which is sad. I actually got into Firefly because of the constant exposure! Although naturally, by the time I did, most of my friends had moved on. Grr. Argh. ;)

I think the difference though - between Lost and Firefly, that is - was the way people talked about it. With Lost, conversations were interrupted and derailed BECAUSE LOST. Firefly, I just knew a lot of people liked it, but I never felt like people just assumed I'd watched it and if I didn't, I wasn't welcome at the party, you know? I'm sure people had the opposite with some Firefly fans, though.

Especially the younger ones, so maybe that's also it? All of the Firefly fans I knew ranged from their mid twenties to early fifties, and they mostly just had tons of Firefly icons and said "shiny" a lot, which I didn't even realize was a reference until I finally saw the show. Whereas the Lost fans I knew initially were mostly 16-21. I had older friends and a family member who liked it, but again, they just told me they liked it, and that was that.

Edited Date: 2016-03-03 01:04 pm (UTC)

From:

rhoda-rants.livejournal.com

Oh yeah--I know what you mean. It's a different but sometimes related issue, sometimes unrelated, but they're both problems.

On the actual topic you're talking about--anything that queerbaits will just piss me off now. Beyond the shipper goggles, shows that deliberately tease their audience and then never follow through. There's a reason I've avoided Supernatural, let's say. I know I couldn't take the frustration of the queerbaiting and the way the women are treated. There must be something squee-worthy there, otherwise the fanbase wouldn't be so huge and full of awesome people I already know and like from other fandoms, but after the second time I tried to watch it and the first episode wouldn't play right--both streaming AND on DVD--I decided it was a sign.

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teaandfailure.livejournal.com

Oh Lord, the Bill and Ted thing. Yeah. Me too. ME TOO. I try so hard to justify it, but. But. But.

I love Star Wars, but now whenever I watch it, I think of the Family Guy Star Wars episode where they talk about how Leia is the only woman in the entire universe, and then they do the part in Return of the Jedi with Mon Mothma and the dialogue is all:

Luke: Hey look, another girl.
Leia: I don't like her. *Crosses arms*

I still love it though, Mon Mothma is my girl. Also the franchise appears to be well on the way to fixing it.

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Definitely. I can't stay mad at Star Wars, even after the mess that was the prequels. I think the thing that saves Star Wars is that when you break it down, it's just a fantasy story for kids. If it had been made for adults, with more gender politics and sexuality up front, then those scenarios would have messed up the film, but because it's all on the surface, it never goes so far as to offend.

Family Guy and Robot Chicken - the only time I tune in is for Star Wars spoofs!

From:

qwentoozla

I feel like I had the inverse response to that author's experience with Batman: Year One, because I read it quite recently, after I was already familiar with Frank Miller and his issues with female characters, and I think that colored my view of the comic. By itself, it's not that bad, but if you know the pattern into which it fits, it seems worse.

I remember learning that Orson Scott Card is a huge bigot... it was kind of disappointing because I did love Ender's Game, but I also felt like it explained why so many of the sequels totally sucked.

sometimes when we're human, we say and do stupid things - except we don't have the whole world watching/listening/reading and judging.

Yeah, sometimes I say something that sounds SO stupid after I hear myself say it, either because I just expressed it wrong or because I didn't think it through. I'm so glad what I say doesn't get remembered and picked over forever...

Edited Date: 2016-03-03 04:06 am (UTC)

From:

theidolhands.livejournal.com

I'm very tolerative of separating people's work from what they create or do, especially if what they create doesn't force feed views (I actually find that modern work does that more). The story is the key thing to me. Is it a good story? Do I relate to this? Does it offer a powerful message or thought of any kind that is worth pondering?

I like to listen to old time radio, I do not especially expect feminist messages, but there are many talented actors and amazing stories to absorb. Same for black and white films. Is Rock Hudson less charming in the role of leading man now that we all know he was a homosexual? Bing Crosby's voice is smooth as silk, his films were very decent, but he was an abusive spouse.

People are entitled to opinions. I don't have to like them. I learned that in elementary school. But I do expect some god damn storytelling or art. I do not expect my time wasted.

Nor do I take back anything I loved as a child. I don't mind stating as an adult, or with the progress of time this or that bothers me, but I still honor the innocence of that inner child who either didn't understand or was much too focused on something else to care (yes, okay, boobs, but the alien part was AWESOME). I read X-men comics at eight. Learned a lot. Not sure I'd learn as much today at the same age.

The worst is nit-picking something to death. Have we really gotten so jaded as a society that we can't just be entertained? It's good or it ain't. There is more than one way to be good, but it's got to grab ya and not just be self-indulgent gunk. I seen a lot of posh, sophisticated things that are adding nothing to the original work (for any of its "flaws"). Tron would be a big example of that. But by all means, absolutely, improve upon what is there or create something new for the hole you see missing; your story can exist too without just tearing predecessors down.

Or perhaps they did not experience first hand (an kid who saw or read something at a certain age is not the same as a teen or adult being introduced to it for the first time). And FIRST TIME means that all the ideas and faces were very NEW...you can take for granted Labyrinth or The Dark Crystal (etc), but back then...there was nothing quite like it. The newness has to fade, not only is the frame of mind gone, but so is the surprise. Still, when something has magic...it lasts. A lot of things lack magic now, because it requires a large level of naivety that an information society dispells.

I had to draw a line with Woody Allen, after he married his wife I wouldn't pay money for his work, but since his other daughter's statements (which make a lot of sense)...now, I'm not sure I could even watch his work for free. Now. If Mr. Allen was a convicted felon who made very interesting work, admitted he could not control himself, and was sorry...that might be different. But the public denial and flaunting thing doesn't sit right. The child being in pain doesn't either.

My concern lies with society pretending they don't see/hear/know something, with putting people on pedestals they can't fall off of or be questioned (and that happens surprisingly a lot with icons within fandom despite many being keen to challenge anything they perceive as "the powers that be"). In relation to that thought: more than one person has recently mentioned how you can't discuss Lovecraft's racism. That's stupid. If you have to pretend it didn't exist in order to like his work, nay...to realize how core his loathing of humanity in general was to his work...then you're just not really a fan. It is what it is.

From:

theidolhands.livejournal.com

Lastly, I'll address people making up their minds about something they know little about. I read up on legal cases, it wasn't easy to cut through the gossip -- least of all with popular publications like Vanity Fair taken as gospel (it's just a glossy Enquirer); you have to dig. I hate that in society. We're getting more and more ruled by public opinion. Yet, there is SUPPOSED to be more information than ever.

I see a lot of lemming behavior in fandom too and it can suck my toes. You know why I got into these quirky hobbies? Because I didn't fit in. And I don't need geeks or nerds (of which I belong) dictating my thoughts or opinions to me anymore than I needed it as a kid. I'll make up my own mind, thank you. And for that, I am likely to get shunned, but that's how it was once upon a time as a nerd. We didn't require a herd, we loved our things in obscurity, and that made the love very pure for there was not much outward reward to be gained by it. So, it's okay. Interacting is nice, but...the dreams are better.

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theidolhands.livejournal.com

I'm pissed off that "Straight Outta Compton" didn't have the balls to include the abuse of women in the true story. I'm annoyed that nobody asks why they did that and instead glorifies only half the truths in an era where we're supposed to be improving on TRUTHS (key to the film's message).

Edited Date: 2016-03-03 05:45 am (UTC)

From:

hamsterwoman

Besides Ender's Game (which I read as a teen, so, fairly late by the standards of this question), a lot of the stuff I grew up on (in the Soviet Union) had a sizeable doze of Soviet propaganda in it (who would've guessed, right? but one doesn't notice it as a kid, especially not when it's a fish-in-water thing), and when rereading it later, I was like, "All that was in there? Maaaybe I won't share this with my kids..." (The best stuff, though, was pretty universal, and nuanced, and held up anyway.)

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beefi-xxx.livejournal.com

From:

frelling-tralk.livejournal.com

I do tend to handwave more if it was a different timeframe I guess, it can feel strange though definitely when you go back and watch even what you would think of as fairly recent shows like Friends or Sex And The City, yet their attitudes suddenly seem so incredibly dated when say Chandler is joking about his gay dad being such an embrassment, or Carrie is just horrified at the thought of dating a bisexual man. I mean even Buffy, I love it, but a lot of the stuff with Xander especially (for example the gay panic being played for laughs with Larry) is stuff that you would really raise an eyebrow at today

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angiereedgarner.livejournal.com

Not exactly answering your question, but it is really interesting when I find out a creative person was smelly and even extra human vs. when their smelliness took on dealbreaker proportions and I couldn't enjoy the work any more. I kind of expect artists of whatever type to be extra human, now that I think about it. :)

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