fandom and entitlement in the digital age

[orangerful]

This is a bit of a mini-rant but I was finally able to put my finger on one of my angry!fangirl triggers and it is entitlement.

For example: I wasn't a big fan of the finale of Game of Thrones. We've discussed it on here, my coworkers and I have discussed it, the whole world has discussed it.

THAT IS GOOD. That is what entertainment should do - start discussions. Even something as frustrating as the finale of a series, the one good thing it brings is discussion. Yeah, we were upset, angry, frustrated, and we all talked about it and it was great.

But then things got mean. People started petitions to re-write and re-film the show. First, it is insulting to everyone that worked on this show (I think rhoda_rants might have been the one to tweet this) - these people spent years writing, filming, editing, and more to create this show for us. They were paid to do their job and they did. HBO is NOT going to pay them to do it over. The show is over, the series is done.

Second, it is just so entitled and immature to demand that the artist remake THEIR story in YOUR vision. Yeah, their vision might have been poorly thrown together, a mess, not beta-tested, but it was their story. The end. Don't like it? That's fine. Tell people not to watch the show. Lament the mistakes. But how RUDE to demand such a thing.

One of the people I follow in Twitter (a random Star Wars fan that I'm still not 100% sure how I ended up following) has turned in to one of the whiny fanboys about the latest trilogy and it drives me crazy, but he mentioned GoT and Last Jedi in the same tweet and it made me realize something - one man's trash is another woman's really enjoyed Star Wars movie. How do we know there are not fans out there who liked GoTs ending? They might exist, but the constant screams of other fans have drowned them out. But should we make them feel bad about it?

I really enjoyed TFA and TLJ. Yeah TLJ has flaws, but I really enjoyed watching the story unfold. He tweeted something the other day about how the 'Rise of Skywalker' trailer looked like they would "apologize to fans" for what they did in TLJ and, again, that entitlement, that taking it personally. Star Wars is a franchise enjoyed by millions of people. For you to claim that your experience with the series is THE defining experience and therefore if you did not like the latest movie, the artists owe YOU an apology for not enjoying THEIR story...it's childish.

He's gone on some other tangent now about corporations owning the intellectual property and hiring "mercenary artists" to do their work and I feel like I might be done because that phrase is just very nasty sounding and sounds like he is done talking now. This happened before when we tried to discuss TLJ because he hit a ridiculous level and I decided not to follow.

*phew* sorry. It has just been bothering me and I keep responding. We're debating and it is a civil conversation but for some reason it just annoys me no end. Maybe it is because of the internet and that we have access to show creators in a way we didn't before and people abuse that power.

okay, done now. I think I'll play Monster Prom and clear my head a bit :P

Comments

[rhoda_rants]

I can't remember what I have tweeted or shared about this, but it has been on my mind a lot. I do remember seeing something that said, "Good lord, just write fix-it fic like the rest of us!" and that's kind of been my take on it.

That said, I'm on the side of, "This whole wrap-up was bad and you should feel bad," where the ending is concerned. My mom liked it though. *shrug* It hasn't been as contentious outside of social media, honestly. People are, "Eh, I liked this bit. This bit over here? Not so much." People are just generally less mad about it when you talk to them offline.

Another thing I've been thinking about is, even though it seems like this sending-petitions-to-get-the-ending-changed nonsense is a new development, it's really not. Charles Dickens rewrote the ending to Great Expectations because the Pip/Estella shippers wouldn't shut up about it. Arthur Conan Doyle got bullied into bringing Sherlock Holmes back from the dead. And Misery is fiction, but there's a reason Stephen King had that idea about a murderous fan who kidnapped an author because she didn't like the way his series was going.

So, people being assholes about art they didn't create have always existed. The live-tweeting and the next-day (sometimes next-hour) thinkpieces just make it more immediate and obvious.

I actually have a lot of feelings about GoT despite not having been watching it, just consuming the story second-hand. It still really bothers me how many people seem to hate Jon Snow. He's a basically decent guy and he's doing his best. What is everyone's problem with him, seriously? I'm gonna write up a Thing at some point, I'll let you know.

[orangerful]

LOL yeah I guess that is true. I didn't know about 'Great Expectations' but that is kind of hilarious.

I don't even know how anyone has strong feelings about anyone on that show anymore LOL. Oddly enough, that's not one of the complaints I have heard. I mean, like you said, he kept trying to do the right thing, the same fatal flaw that Ned Stark had. Why are people surprised? It actually tracks!

[rhoda_rants]

We read both endings when I was in high school, and the second one is cheesier and way less in character for everyone involved. It was a bad idea, and I'm glad our teacher had us read that to show what it's like when the audience DOES get their way. That's what pandering after the author no longer wants anything to do with it looks like.

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[orangerful]

I remember an interview with Joss Whedon when he said "Don't give the audience what they want - give them what they need." In other words, don't pander, stay true to your story and your characters.

I really think that was the downfall of X-Files, trying to please the 'shippers. It derailed the show, which was already suffering from other issues but that pandering didn't help the story move forward.

The thing is, the creators have to be strong enough to ignore the fans and their requests. My online friend (you can easily find the thread on my twitter feed, it has been going for a few days) insists that Disney is controlling the Star Wars story and I'm like 'yeah, not really'. I mean, they are watching the dollar signs but I don't think they are taking creative control away from people. And he keeps saying that RoS is going to be a backpedal/apology and I just don't believe that and I really hope it is not true.

[rhoda_rants]

I'm not familiar enough with X-Files to comment on that, but I believe you. I know people were aggravated at the show during the end for a number of reasons.

Oh man, I hope "Rise of Skywalker" isn't a backpedal. I hadn't heard that before, but I imagine it's wishful thinking on the part of everyone who hated "Last Jedi." The thing is, I do think creators should keep their audience in mind. There's a great quote from the Master of Horror episode "Cigarette Burns" about this sense of trust between creator and audience, the people watching trusting the filmmaker/artist to take them right to the edge of what they're comfortable with. And if that trust is violated, if the artist goes "too far," it can feel like a betrayal. I get why people are pissed.

None of which means the fans get to make demands of the people actually making the thing, or that they should expect those demands to be met. There's a line there.

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[beccadg]

Arthur Conan Doyle got bullied into bringing Sherlock Holmes back from the dead.

I can't comment on Charles Dickens because I know very little about him. I won't say anything more about bringing Misery into the conversation than this--starting an online petition is hardly kidnapping and-or murder. I can and will say that Arthur Conan Doyle wasn't "bullied" into bringing Sherlock Holmes back. He didn't bring him back simply because of "fan demand." ACD brought Sherlock Holmes back because nothing else he ever produced was as financially successful as Sherlock Holmes. There is an important detail that seems to be either getting forgotten or ignored in this conversation. We aren't talking about "Art" that was produced in some artist colony for "Art's sake alone." We are talking about commercially produced entertainment products.

Hell, with both GoT and Star Wars, we're not only talking about commercially produced entertainment products--we're talking about products that have been bought and sold at multiple levels. HBO bought the rights to ASoIF so it could make a lot of money selling GoT to the already established ASoIF consumer market. Disney bought Star Wars so that it could make a lot of money selling more Star Wars products to the already established Star Wars consumer market. We aren't talking about "fans" making demands on an "artist." We're talking about end consumers who have paid for a product one way or another, by getting an HBO subscription, buying a ticket, and-or buying secondary merchandise, exercising two of their basic consumer rights--the right to be heard, and the right to redress.

In a little more detail, a consumer who receives a product they aren't happy with has the right to express their dissatisfaction with that product to the producers of that product. Depending on the individual consumer, what they say maybe entitled and childish, but the act of exercising their right is neither. It's their basic right as a consumer. Also in a little more detail, a consumer who receives a product they aren't happy with has the right to seek remedy or compensation (redress). They only have the right to seek it. GoT consumers who feel having the entirety of the last season redone would remedy their dissatisfaction have the right to seek that. HBO as the producer of the product they are unsatisfied with has and will no doubt exert its right to ignore them.

I have never once in my life walked out of a movie and demanded my money back for two basic reasons. One is that I figure if I was dumb enough to buy the ticket in the first place I should suffer through the whole thing. It's masochistic, but that's me. The other one--the more important one to this conversation--is that I know if I demand my money back from the theater I'm not getting my compensation directly from the producer of the product I'm dissatisfied with. I'm penalizing the theater that's just part of the distribution chain for the product. If I was actually going to get my compensation from the producer I'd need to get my ticket money back from the company that produced the film, and I imagine any major studio I demanded my ticket money back from would ignore me.

I'd say the folks petitioning for a do-over on an entire season of GoT aren't entitled and childish fans, but they are end consumers with no concept of how to actually get some remedy for their dissatisfaction. As multiple people in this conversation have said what they should do is write themselves some comforting fix-it fic, or if they're doing the petition in the first place because they have no ideas of their own for comforting fix-it fic they should go find some. I know after I thoroughly exercised my right to be heard by expressing how deeply dissatisfied I was with Avengers: Endgame and gave how to fix-it some thought I had my remedy.

[rhoda_rants]

You don't know me, and this isn't my journal, so I'm going to say this one time for the benefit of anyone else who might think addressing me like this is a good idea: Introducing yourself via a lengthy screed about how everything I just said is WRONG, actually, is the fastest way to get blocked. Do not do it again.

[orangerful]

That was the angle my twitter friend was taking - that it was corporately owned and therefore the people making the shows and movies had no real creative control, but I don't really believe that. I'm sure it varies from studio to studio but I don't think HBO had a person looming on set, checking everything they did. Honestly, HBO should be just as upset since they tried to renew the series and the finale was the choice of the showrunners, not the writers. HBO should be the ones with the petition to bring back GoT for more, better seasons LOL.

I'm not questioning a consumer's right to be heard but it is the manner in which people are doing it. When the video game Mass Effect 3 was released a LOT of gamers did NOT like the ending. I think because it was a video game (and there were no obvious writers or actors or directors to attack) they did the logical thing - they ranted online and then demanded a refund of their money on the game. I guess they did ask for a better ending via DLC but I don't recall any personal attacks, no destroying any one single person's life, no attacking voice actors and making them delete their twitter accounts. EA released the DLC free of charge that "fixed" the ending - adding some additional cut scenes and moments with characters to say a proper goodbye.

My biggest issue is the way people are interacting. Attacking the actors from GoT online. Harassing Kelly Marie Tran until she had to leave the internet. DEMANDING remakes. I feel like a random tweet of "Cancelling my HBO account" and actually doing it (though, let's face it, how many of us are using some else's HBO account? How mad can I be after watching it for free?). And the Star Wars fans who hurl angry insults yet offer no constructive ways to fix things (well, except the one who are sexist and their helpful suggestion is less women).

And the realization I had was that the online fandom outrage is a small percentage of actual fandom and it can ruin it for viewers who may have enjoyed something. It makes the assumption that their interpretation of a show or movie is the RIGHT one and THEY should get to decide how the creators move forward, which doesn't seem right. Saying they didn't like it and they don't want to watch it anymore/won't pay for it anymore is one thing. But the push to, say, tell the writers of Star Wars to write out the character of Rose Tico (who is mysteriously absent from the new trailer) just feels wrong. That's a person, someone who did their job as best they could, and you want them fired? For what? What did they do to you? (I am saying this to the hypothetical Star Wars fanboy, not you)

So, yeah, I just wish people would act more mature about these things because it is just embarrassing. I wish "fans" would recognize that we all react to these stories in different ways and their one opinion isn't the opinion of all fans.

And if they want to commiserate, they need to get on old-school social media, like Dreamwidth, and have threaded conversations that involved paragraphs that go on way too long rather than just angry tweets to the universe.

[geeklover80]

I'm torn on the issue, really. I don't necessarily agree that it's disrespectful to want the show remade - maybe to the writers but that's about it. Actually thinking they would remake the whole season is delusional and stupid, but wanting it redone is another. I've had shows that ended in massively disappointing ways and if the fan reaction turned their mind around and they changed it, I wouldn't have an issue with it. I HATED the end of Torchwood season 3 and I hated the arrogant way the show writer defended it (which is why I vowed to never watch anything of his again and haven't.) If fan reaction could have changed that I would have been fine with it.

As someone who writes, I would probably be livid if someone demanded I make changes just to suit their needs. But I think when it comes to some forms of entertainment - especially TV shows - they shouldn't act like they're writing in a vacuum and they don't have an audience who they are somewhat beholden. If people don't watch, their shows get canceled, and they make no money. I think years ago in the comics - I'm not sure about this since I don't read them - they turned Captain America into a Nazi. I think there was a HUGE outcry about that, and eventually, they fixed it. I think in situations like that, it is important that, whether it's your vision or not, you do respect your audience. I'm not saying writers should craft their work just to please the "supposed" majority (I've been on the other side of it and had something I really enjoy ended and treated IMO disrespectfully on-screen because the "majority" hated it) but sometimes listening to what the fans want is for the best.

The only issue I have with fan entitlement is when it's done in a nasty and disrespectful way or when they make ridiculous and unreasonable demands.

Stacey

[orangerful]

But reacting to a plot point before seeing how it all plays out can also be a problem. If you were writing a series and you had a character do something that would later play out in the story arc you had planned but people FREAKED OUT and demanded you change it or they would never read your story again...would you do it? Or would you just keep your head down, write, knowing you KNEW where the story was going?

I'm not saying the GoT people did that, but I'm really curious about the next Star Wars movie. People are saying "oh the trailer makes it look like they are undoing everything from the last movie" and I'm like PLEASE DON'T! This is the finale for these characters, I want to see their stories come full circle, not watch them take steps backward. I hope they ignored the obnoxious people online who harassed Kelly Marie Tran until she left the internet completely (and she's not featured in the new trailer)

I'm not saying the end of GoT was one of my favorites. Definitely a mess. I was not a fan. But I'm not going to yell at the writers or crew or actors about it. Most of them did the best with what they had.

And I'm not surprised when artists say things in defense of their art and it comes off rude or arrogant - they are being attacked and they probably thought they did an okay job at the time.

Someone on the LJ post commented that fans who talk about the show online vs fans that do have different opinions. Because the online fans get caught up in the whirlwind of bashing the show or reading the negative things about it. I'd love to see someone do a study on that!

[jerusha]

Yeah, fans get to be upset or unhappy with how things turn out, but that's what fanfic is for! Go forth and find yourself some fic, people!

[orangerful]

This is the problem - nerdy things have taken over the world but these "normal" people are watching and don't know how fanfic works ;-)

[elisi]

Well, here's Rusell T Davies (From The Writer's Tale). I have bolded the part I think is most important. :)

FROM: RUSSELL T DAVIES TO: BENJAMIN COOK, SUNDAY 6 MAY 2007
And I’ll tell you what pisses me off most of all: [...] now there’s a new element entering the room: writers wondering, ‘What will they say about me?’ Meaning, online. More and more, with every writer. It’s those internet message boards. The forums. They destroy writers. This job is full of doubts already, but now there’s a whole new level of fear, shouting at us. It is now a writer’s job, like it or not, to put up with it. It’s like when Helen Raynor went on Outpost Gallifrey last month and read the reviews of her two Dalek episodes. She said that she was, literally, shaking afterwards. Like she’d been physically assulted. I’m not exaggerating. She said it was like being in a pub when a fight breaks out next to you. I had to spend two hours on the phone to her, talking her out of it, convincing her that of course she can write, that we do need her and want her. That bastard internet voice gets into writers’ heads and destabilises then massively.

The stupidest thing you can say is ‘Ignore it’, because no one can. Who can resist going in search of their own name on the internet? Coming to terms with it is the key. Helen knows that now. It was the same with Murray Gold during Series One: a massive loss of faith after the first episode leaked onto the internet, because he read the Outpost Gallifrey comments about his music. He was saying, ‘I don’t know how to do my job anymore’. Noel Clarke read the online reviews of his portrayal of Mickey, but at least he got angry. Yet none of them has been attacked as viciously as I’ve been. I always thought I was a big old poof (albeit Number One Poof!), but sometimes I think I must be made of some sort of steel. I read that stuff and it doesn’t stop me, not ever. I’ve got quite high-flown and fancy beliefs about art that maybe put it all into perspective. Principally: it is not a democracy. Creating something is not a democracy. The people have no say. The artist does. It doesn’t matter what the people witter on about; they and their response come after. They’re not there for the creation.

This is becoming one of the great arguments of the day, for populist writers especially. It taps into the whole debate across journalism about the democratisation of the critic. It was summed up best by Rachel Cooke in The Observer recently, where she said that the online voice writes with a deep sense of exclusion. [...] I think it’s right that they’re excluded! [...] If something is typed it seems official. [...] So it can mess up writers when they read that endlessly critical voice. It’s completely, completely destructive. I cannot see one iota of it that’s helpful, except maybe in the toughening up. Helen is in a delicate position in that she’s only just started, and she’s on the verge of being really very good - and now she finds herself ruined by this wall of hostility. It makes me furious.

[orangerful]

I really have wondered how this effects writers. I know so many of them go offline while writing now and so go offline when a show is airing or a book is released etc. to avoid the reaction.

I agree with his statement. And he's not saying they can't complain afterwards, though it would be better if people didn't personally attack writers. You can say "I did not enjoy that story" but writing something that is so cruel that it leaves someone shaking and unsure about their life choices, that is what bothers me.